Miller asks the question, "Does God have a specific plan for your life?" Then he answers with, "Probably not."
Proverbs 16:9 says,
"In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps."If all we had to go on was this verse alone, it's enough to surmise that Miller's idea is false.
This idea of his seems to fly in the face of the teaching's of Paul who stated clearly (quoting the old testament) that God creates with PURPOSE.
The logical end of statements that support the idea of a "purposeless God" is that God is no more than the great winder-upper of creation's entropic clock. I find this, firstly, not biblical, and secondly, offensive.
Sorry Don. Lost me on that one.
I'm by no means a theologian or even a knowledgeable Christian but here's my opinion:
ReplyDeleteMan, I don't know. It seems as if you just read the title of his blog. I think Don would agree with everything you stated above. The point I think he's making is that God doesn't have absolutely everything in your life mapped out minute by minute or have only one strict plan for your life. He also says that there are instances that God has a direct and exact plan for your life, and when that happens, you'll know. There's no guesswork.
But then again, I could be all wrong.
Or, in Don's words in a response to somebody's comment that is fairly similar to what you're saying:
ReplyDelete"My blog essentially stated that God doesn’t have a specific desire for which coffee you drink tomorrow morning."
Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD."
ReplyDeleteBig things are made up of small things. You can't let God be in charge of the big things without letting Him be in charge of the small things as well.
@ Tyson & Ryan,
ReplyDeleteSo this means that God DOES LIKE FOLGERS COFFEE BEST! I KNEW it! :) haha... j/k j/k...
Josh, keep doin what you do brother, you have a way with words man. And what you're doing with this blog is a really good thing.
Had I known you were so knowledgeable about the Bible while we lived next door to one another, I would have been most eager to discuss it with you frequently... you should have said something!
My issue with Miller's blog, and I read it, is that it just doesn't seem Biblical. With so many verses discussing God as being in control of even the most minute thing, it doesn't make sense to reject the notion that He cares for, and is in charge of the most minute thing.
ReplyDeleteI think Creation itself is a good example of the attention to detail to which God has paid His world. Everything in order.
If the hairs on your head are numbered, and the sparrow does not fall from the sky apart from the will of The LORD, how much more attention is paid the lives and events surrounding The LORD's own children?
Don may agree with what I've written, but I don't believe he could explain how in a logical, coherent, and biblical manner. You can't say God is in control and then say God isn't controlling this or that.
Also, I've always taken a issue with Miller's finer theological points, but I didn't want to dismiss him because that would seem to validate a big point he tries to make, but it's important to me to promote true belief and worship of God. I can't promote a blog I'm constantly shaking my head at.
I think he's a neat guy. I'll probably still by his books when they come out.
I used to think, maybe still struggle with, God controlling everything in the world. Then I let go of trying to over rationalize it. He is God. All powerful and omnipresent. I believe people have a hard time thinking God is responsible for the bad in humanity.
ReplyDeleteFrom a Biblical standpoint Romans 9 just summarizes how God operates. Paraphrasing, He does what he wants.
I just wrote a big nice response and lost it all.
ReplyDeleteBlah.
Either way thanks for the comments.
ReplyDelete@Tyson I re-read the blog several times trying to see it in a better light. I see completely what you are saying. I see now that particular tone in his writing. I understand that he means to say that God doesn't have specific INSTRUCTION for our everyday lives. But God does have a specific PLAN. If only the writer had used that word there would have probably been no comment on my part. Talk about splitting hairs.
One commenter on the blog described the difference between God's REVEALED will and God's DECREED will. This is an important distinction.
God's "revealed" will is revealed in His Word.
God's secret "decreed" will belongs to Him.
God DOES have a "specific plan" for all of us. But God, likely, will not tell you what that plan is. He has decreed what coffee you will drink, but you shouldn't pray expecting God to tell you what coffee to drink. Read His word, seek wise counsel, pray for wisdom...
Brew Starbucks Sumatra.
Sola Deo Gloria
Josh,
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that you do not believe in "free will" though?
The most basic way I can think of to say what I think about how our own actions relate to the will of God is like this:
God designs and creates a video game, all the graphics and details, the music, and does all the programming, etc... Then He lets it run and play out by itself; at any given point he can intervene and change something, even something that is going to happen way ahead of time.
He can add characters, change scenery, and add whatever He chooses along the way and throughout the game...
Maybe He already ran the whole game ahead of time but maybe He chose not to watch the whole thing right then. Perhaps He was watching a Kingdom of Heaven Football League game in His iMaxDivine³ theater, so He just let it do it's thing and came back later to view it.
The program still had to run within the boundaries of it's current capabilities, but the characters in the game randomly did what they were designed to do. Now once He intervenes, He can change the boundaries to do "special" things at whatever times He chooses to do so.
There we have free will and we have predestination at the same time. And since I believe that God can freely navigate time in any direction, what's happening now with us, our current point in time that is, this is already the past as far as God is concerned.
If you knew what it was like already to exist for eternity, do you think you would perceive time in a sense of past, present, and future? I don't think I would, I'd probably feel like time was just my world, and I could go wherever I wanted in my world.
Starbucks Sumatra indeed.
ReplyDelete@Casey
ReplyDeleteI'll try to carefully explain my belief of "the will".
Biblically, I come at this way...In a human's pre-regenerative state, his will is completely slave to sin. He can do no righteous thing. The intention of his heart is selfishly motivated all the time.
The regenerated Christian, on the other hand, is free from slavery to sin, but has traded sin-slavery for slavery to Christ. Now his will is bound to Christ.
So never is his will truly "free".
A more philosophical look at it...The commenter above, Ryan, said it well. If God is in charge of the "big" things, then he must be in charge of the "small" things, because "big things are made up of small things."
During my jog today, I decided to call this the "snooze button philosophy". Hitting snooze for 5 mins more sleep is a small choice. We barely think about it.
BUZZZZZZ....."ugh"......SLAP....zzzzz
This small decision could be the difference between making it to work or getting caught in an intersection where you are hit by a car a killed, effectually changing the world forever.
The coffee you decide to drink determines which coffee company is a success, who has a job, which coffee farmer feeds his family. No small decisions.
God is in charge of these decisions.
Back to the Bible for example.
Jesus Christ is said to have been "crucified from the foundation of the world." His death and resurrection was the plan of God for all eternity.
Somebody had to actually kill Jesus. It was the plan of God, that the Jews would be the ones to call for His death. "Crucify Him." they yelled.
Yet, the Jews acted on their sinful wishes. It was certainly a sin to call for the death of an innocent man. Christ's blood rested on their hands. Yet, this was the plan of God.
The sinful will of the Jews and the eternal decree of God working harmoniously together to bring about the eternal plan of God for the salvation of His people.
Romans 9:11-18
...though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Verse 16 is a key verse here.
"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God..."
Martin Luther wrote an extensive work on the subject called "The Bondage Of The Will". Admittedly, I haven't read it...it's quite large.
J.I. Packer wrote a slightly more palatable book called "Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God". I own this one and have read it cover to cover. It contains a chapter on the responsibility of man and it's relationship to our Sovereign God. I can sum up this chapter in one word.
Paradoxical.
Everyday we make choices to go here or there, to eat this or drink that. We make these decisions every moment of our lives. And yet, God is completely in control of His world and everything His creation does. Nothing takes place apart from the eternal and wise decree of God.
Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD."
@Josh # 1 of 2
ReplyDeleteQuoting what you said, "The coffee you decide to drink determines which coffee company is a success, who has a job, which coffee farmer feeds his family. No small decisions.", I must say that these few statements have given me a really good understanding of how you look at predestination. After reading just this paragraph, I have actually "altered" my thinking to an extent. This has no doubt given me a lot to think about and consider later on...
This is because in addition to those statements, you also said, "God is in charge of these decisions." Furthermore, and also in addition to the statement you made that true Christians aren't slaves to sin anymore but rather to Christ and that since they have submitted to His will, it is now only logical to say that -- in serving God, a true servant will readily follow his righteous thoughts; even if a thought is something as small as which coffee he wants to place in his shopping cart. And you and I are both in agreement that even small decisions such as that can have a large scale impact on a whole lot of other people in the world.
I'm going to be thinking about this for a while now, but if this was the case of how our 'will' really and truly works in relation to God's will, something still seems a little bit 'off' about this.
------------
Let's look at the scripture of Romans 9:16-17 for a minute because I need to try and understand some things that I'm not entirely sure that I do...
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Q: What exactly does mercy mean in verse 16? Is that saying, from God's point of view something like the following scenario?:
"I'm gonna take it easy on you because I feel for ya because Pharaoh has been horrible, and so have his predecessors before him."
Q: And what of raising someone up specifically with the intention of knocking them back down as in verse 17? Also, hardening someone from verse 18... Continuing the same scenario...
"And I'm gonna be hard on this guy that has had things easy his whole life; he has lived without regard for anyone else or their suffering, he has continually treated people cruelly and unjustly. His predecessors were no better, this has gone on for years upon years.
He also refuses to even make an attempt to aknowledge My sovereignty, so now I make him my tool, a device to demonstrate that when I'm talking, BOY, you had better shut your pie hole and listen! I will deaden his heart, blind him, and deafen him so his mind won't be changed easily, this will make him suffer more efficiently until I'm ready to finish the job. Afterwards I will ultimately set an example to everyone by crushing him and his whole army."
Q: Had God controlled Pharaoh's heart from the 1st day of his life and intentionally subjected him to things which hardened his heart right up until the end of his life? Or was Pharaoh's heart hardened because he ignored thoughts of compassion and other good things early in his life; had he ignored the Holy Spirit trying to give him a chance to change for the better? Surely if it was the latter of the two cases, surely God could have still used a "good Pharaoh" in a miraculous way which still showed God's might to the world, could He not have?
@Josh #2 of 2
ReplyDeleteMake no mistake, I completely understand that God most certainly can do whatever He chooses to and He can do -this whatever-, whenever He decides to. I also have no problem at all bowing down to God, I completely understand the fact that He is in complete control and in my own opinion of myself in comparison, I am nothing more than nothing at all. God does not owe me anything, though I like to feel like it is I who desires a relationship with Him as I do, and not Him forcing me to want it.
My heart's intentions are that I am completely willing to do what He wants of me, and I want to with all my mind and my heart. But if He puts it in my head that I like "Folgers" better than "Maxwell House" and therefore causes me to purchase Folgers, in hindsight and regardless of the effects this had on anyone, this would not really be relevant to any of my future thoughts because it is something so very basic to me. I mean it isn't something I'd think about a lot, after all, can you tell me the brand name of the last bag of jelly beans you bought?
What I'm having a problem with regarding this whole scenario of how our 'will' works, this full control scenario is this: If God never lets me take the controls of the flesh that I exist in, then this means that I never made the decision to seek Him and a relationship with Him, it was He who decided that for me. It means that anyone I try to turn to Christianity and try to steer them toward God, it means that they are not really themselves making the choice based on what I've said or done, but rather God is controlling whether or not they will listen from the very start.
How then can our relationship with God ever be genuine if it has been 'rigged' from the beginning?
I feel like God will send thoughts to people through the Holy Spirit which point folks in the right direction, and depending on how we use those "right directions" determines whether or not He will keep on guiding us with the Holy Spirit. Eventually it gets to the point where He just leaves a man to his own destruction, as in Pharaoh's case for example. The situations to handle might be things like, "am I gonna be nice to this person, or mean to them" or "should I show compassion right now, or not", or "I would like to have that xBox 360 and I don't have money, should I steal it from ol' boy, or not".
I don't know book, chapter, and verse, but a preacher I've been listening to a bit, he implied that this was in the scripture somewhere about how eventually God will withdraw the Holy Spirit from people on a person by person basis. He stated that every time we have ever reached out to start a relationship with God, it was the Holy Spirit which was giving us the thoughts to do so.
Surely God gives us the choice to do either right or wrong, doesn't He?
Okay. I'll go ahead and say, no, I do not believe the will of man is free. Like I said, I believe the will of man is born slave to sin. Because of this sinful curse, no man has the ability to choose God. God must (gently, yet radically) alter the will of man by making man's dead heart alive.
ReplyDeleteSynergy is the word that is used to describe multiple things working together for one purpose. This is synergism.
God calls + man thinks it over and agrees = man agrees to be saved by God. Two working together.
Synergism = Free will.
Regarding the salvation of man, I believe the appropriate word is Monergism. One thing working for one purpose.
God saves man because God is good. Not because man wants him to.
Monergism = Man a slave to sin, God must do ALL the "work" towards man's salvation.
Because, like Paul says in Ephesians 2.
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
In the case of Pharaoh, Pharaoh was born sinful. Hating God. Pharaoh's life was one selfish sinful thought and action after another. Pharaoh was pleased to be sinful. His will was bent towards sin.
Ever person is born exactly as Pharaoh. (psalm 51:5) Bent towards sin and in enmity with God. (romans 8:7-8) Were it not for the monergistic action of a loving God to save His people, all would perish as Pharaoh.
How wonderful that God has mercy on whom He has mercy. How wonderful that it doesn't depend on my desire or effort (which is worthless).
To put it plainly, I believe the Bible teaches that God has purposed to save only His people, and only His people will be saved.
It's like you said...what would be the point of praying for people or talking to them about Christ? Well, what would be the point if God refused to encroach upon the creature's will? Praying makes sense because God has the power to will and to work and to save. Missionary work is worthwhile because it's not up to us to convince sinners they need Jesus. We can preach boldly knowing that only God can save. We need not be eloquent with our words or flashy with our preaching. We don't need coffee shops, light shows, loud music, slick preachers and a dumbed down non-offensive message. It's not our responsibility save people, it's only our job to spread the Gospel.
The Bible does not say, "go out and win souls". The Bible says, go out and preach the good news of Jesus Christ.
When I say "predestination", I mean that God has decreed all that will come to pass. Including the salvation of His people. I use as example, Ephesians 1...
"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will..."
I suggest scoping the whole chapter but this verse alone will suffice.
Contextually, we must remember that Paul is writing a letter to a church in Ephesus. So he's teaching these folks about the glorious nature of their salvation.
Paul says, we are predestined according to God's will. Paul makes no allowance for the will of man. He goes on in chapter 2 (also a good read) to talk about the nature and will of man being dead or slave to sin.
Okay, there's more...but I need to sleep.
Enjoying the discussion.
Overall, this is quite a difficult subject to get a handle on. I was always told that each of us have to make the choice to follow the Christian way of life.
ReplyDeleteThough I haven't done this myself, follow the lifestyle that is, I am trying to now for some compelling reason. The urge is just so strong I couldn't ignore it even if I wanted to.
Of course, here in this country it is next to impossible to truly accomplish this task; there is always something chipping away at the moral fabric of our being -- and doing so from every angle of our everyday lives.
That is a discussion for another time though, one which I plan on blogging soon; just haven't gotten around to it yet.
Anyway, I'll wait for your next post before I chime in again about this predestination topic. It certainly has given me new angles to look at this issue from, but as different as our views might be on the issue, they are actually similar as well. It is complicated.
I'll be watching for your next post, and I'm enjoying the discussion also. I have nobody around here to talk to regarding the Bible; everybody is usually too busy to give me some Jesus time.
It is tough. And each of us do make a choice whether or not to place our faith in Christ. But the unchanged, sinful heart, always chooses faith in himself and his own ideas.
ReplyDeleteThere is something chipping at the moral fabric of our beings. But I believe this thing is the curse of sin. And the damage it has done began at the fall of man in the Garden of Eden.
It is only God who can change the heart, but when He does, the change is irresistible. You said yourself that you weren't interested in all this bullcorn at an earlier time, but now you "couldn't ignore it if you wanted to."
But, yes...I'm glad we can have these discussion.
Iron sharpeneth iron, eh?
Well, I've always believed in what is written in the Bible, just wasn't living according to the Bible; technically, I'm still not.
ReplyDeleteMy whole life has been like...... I'm here, but isolated, generally disgusted, and more... Not gonna go into detail though, other than my mind does not so freely accept the things that most people around me seem to; and it is often extremely frustrating.